Re: [Cz-L] Popovici

Liviu...

I'm delighted with your contribution to our Czernowitz-L Discussion Group and very thankful for the most interesting details, which you are providing from your research activities. Your mails were enlightening for me.

Bruce, Jerome...

I suppose, Liviu is not a registered member of our group (yet), but I strongly believe, his contribution is most important for our understanding of the history of the Czernowitz Jews in 1941/1942. With that said, please - if technically possible - be so kind, to release his mails to the entire group.

Thank you all for your outstanding engagement!

Edgar Hauster
Lent - The Netherlands

Am 21.03.2012 um 16:03 schrieb "liviu carare" <lcarare_at_yahoo.com>:

> Dear Hardy,
>
> The people daring to take steps in the opposite direction in those times are recognized as Righteous among Nations (some of them). Hard to believe, but sometimes such people, as mayor Popovici, acted against nazi / nazi-allied state orders. Traian Popovici was subtle enough in his relationship with the Government of Bukovina to stay in office until the end of 1941. I have many documents, part unpublished, to support my point of view. Things are not as simple as they may seem...
>
> Liviu
>
> From: HARDY BREIER <HARDY3_at_BEZEQINT.NET>
> To: liviu carare <lcarare_at_yahoo.com>; Edgar Hauster <bconcept_at_hotmail.com>
> Cc: Fleming Cornel <cornel.fleming_at_virgin.net>; Czernowitz Discussion Group <czernowitz-l_at_cornell.edu>; Eytan Fichman <fichblue_at_aol.com>; Stephen Winters <stephen.winters_at_atlantichealth.org>; Ruth Gold <glasgold_at_bellsouth.net>; Frieda Tabak <frieda_tabak_at_yahoo.com>; Taylor Miriam <mirtaylo_at_indiana.edu>; Gerhard Schreiber <gerhardrodica_at_aol.com>; Fishler Irene <irenef_at_netvision.net.il>; Iosif Vaisman <iosif.vaisman_at_gmail.com>; Marianne Hirsch <mh2349_at_columbia.edu>; frenchczern1_at_yahoo.com; Cooper Fanny <fannybcooper_at_gmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 10:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [Cz-L] Popovici
>
> 
> Dear Liviu,
> It was 1941.
> Rumania on the way of becoming a superpower.
> Military dictatorship at war .
> Getting rid of the Jews was an old time rumanian aspiration.
> Here comes the big one time chance !
> And one civilian mayor makes them take a step in the opposite
> direction ?
> They could have removed him on the spot or worse.
> But they did not.
> The 20000 Jews stayed.
> Popovici was then fired in disgrace.
> Go understand...
> Hardy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: liviu carare
> To: HARDY BREIER ; Edgar Hauster
> Cc: Fleming Cornel ; Czernowitz Discussion Group ; Eytan Fichman ; Stephen Winters ; Ruth Gold ; Frieda Tabak ; Taylor Miriam ; Gerhard Schreiber ; Fishler Irene ; Iosif Vaisman ; Marianne Hirsch ; frenchczern1_at_yahoo.com ; Cooper Fanny
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 3:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [Cz-L] Popovici
>
> Dear Hardy Breiber,
>
> Indeed bribing the Romanian bureaucracy was a common practice of that time (and unfortunately it is still going on nowadays). Popovici was never accused by the state of taking personal bribes, there were only rumours about it. He was one of the few Romanian high ranking state officials that opposed Antonescu's policy of deporting Jews in Transnistria. This was contrary to 'state interest', the Romanization process and to most part of the local population concerns who was anti-Semitic and hoped to take over Jewish property. So, he had to be removed from office. If I find new data concerning his personal involvment in bribes I'll let you know.
>
> Yours,
> Liviu
> From: HARDY BREIER <HARDY3_at_BEZEQINT.NET>
> To: liviu carare <lcarare_at_yahoo.com>; Edgar Hauster <bconcept_at_hotmail.com>
> Cc: Fleming Cornel <cornel.fleming_at_virgin.net>; Czernowitz Discussion Group <czernowitz-l_at_cornell.edu>; Eytan Fichman <fichblue_at_aol.com>; Stephen Winters <stephen.winters_at_atlantichealth.org>; Ruth Gold <glasgold_at_bellsouth.net>; Frieda Tabak <frieda_tabak_at_yahoo.com>; Taylor Miriam <mirtaylo_at_indiana.edu>; Gerhard Schreiber <gerhardrodica_at_aol.com>; Fishler Irene <irenef_at_netvision.net.il>; Iosif Vaisman <iosif.vaisman_at_gmail.com>; Marianne Hirsch <mh2349_at_columbia.edu>; frenchczern1_at_yahoo.com; Cooper Fanny <fannybcooper_at_gmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 6:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [Cz-L] Popovici
>
> 
> Dear Liviu Carare,
> If Traian Popovici was accused for corruption by exceeding the allocated
> quota for Jews to stay - this is one thing.
> In the eyes of the Rumanian rule - this was corruption .
> In our eyes - divine intervention.
> If he got personal jewish bribes for permits- another matter.
> I am glad to hear that this was not the case.
> Bribing the rumanian beaurocracy was a usual matter and
> we lived with it during the rumanian rule before.
>
> Hardy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: liviu carare
> To: HARDY BREIER ; Edgar Hauster
> Cc: Fleming Cornel ; Czernowitz Discussion Group ; Eytan Fichman ; Stephen Winters ; Ruth Gold ; Frieda Tabak ; Taylor Miriam ; Gerhard Schreiber ; Fishler Irene ; Iosif Vaisman ; Marianne Hirsch ; frenchczern1_at_yahoo.com ; Cooper Fanny
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 2:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [Cz-L] Popovici
>
> Dear Hardy Breier,
>
> The Romanian head of state, Ioan Antonescu, ordered investigations in both Kishinev and Czernowitz ghettos, trying to find if the state was defrauded in the process of deportation. So, the Romanian authorities didn't try to see if abuses or crimes were comitted against the Jews, but to identify the corrupt officials. They failed doing so and corruption was probably the most important factor which kept Jews alive, or in our case in Czernowitz.
> Regarding the actions and activity of mayor Popovici you are not correct. If you read the conclusions of the inquiry commission, you'll see that it cannot establish if Popovici or general Ionescu were corrupt, but nontheless they were responsible for all the 'irregularities' - which means here execeding the number of Jews allowed in the city. The easiest way of getting rid of members of Romanian administration was to label them as 'corrupt'. The Romanian Special Services were watching very close all of the mayor's actions. They even investigated if his wife was Jewish or not. Efforts to maintain in Czernowitz a large number of jews have generated numerous accusations of corruption, especially against mayor and the commission members. There is no doubt that in return for writing down one's name on the authorisation some members of the commission took money, but I don't think this is the case of Traian Popovici or general Vasile Ionescu, as I don't have any evidence of this. One example:
> A Secret police report of October 29, 1941 indicates that the removal of Jews in the ghetto who are not technicians is conditioned by payment of 300,000 lei. Moreover, "on behalf of for the authorization the Jew who paid, some 5 to 8 persons indicated as family members are exempt without name and without any evidence showing that point part of the family". The next day Police Inspectorate Czernowitz informs that the attitude of Traian Popovici and and Deputy Mayor is one of concern for the interests of Jews. The two were seen daily walking in in the ghetto and embracing Jews. This attitude has been proven by an eyewitnesses who claims that the mayor expressed sympathy for critical situation of Jews in the ghetto promising them he would interfere to save from deportation of a large number of jews. Ensuring the jews of all his help he even said about 15,000 jews will remain in Czernowitz : "he was so touched that he even cried in the ghetto". Popovici's attitude towards the tragedy of the Jews of Czernowitz was a topic frequently discussed in Secret police reports and informative notes on the ghetto.
> Documents have to be analyzed from different perspectives. This one (the report of the inquiry commsision) is very important because of its length and topic that deals with - how sorting of Jews took place. But this document only confirms to me things I have either found in other sources or I suspected. It does not change the image of Popovici, Czernowitz ghetto and deportations. It gives us more information (or confirms) about who were the decision factors who ordered deportations, who were the ones involved in the sorting process and of course - lists of Jewish professionals.
> If there was no Traian Popovici mayor it is hard to say how many Jews would have stayed in Czernowitz, but probably not so many! I didn't have the information at the time of the paper, but I do now. He was fired on December 1941 and he found out about it in the newspapers because nobody told him he wasn't mayor anymore. They just gave the job to someone else and announced the new mayor. So he stayed home and didn't go to work. Then I think one should ask the question - 'What was Popovici doing after that - in 1942' ? (when other deportations from Czernowitz took place). He was there, on the Maccabi field or at the train station trying to save other families. He was also writing memorandums addressed to central authorities about the futility of anti-Jewish measures and about what happened in 1941.
> There are other factors contributing to the rescue of jews, as Edgar pointed out. Popovici's attitude towards the events is definitely one of those factors, a very important one.
> Sincerely,
> Liviu Carare
>
> From: HARDY BREIER <HARDY3_at_BEZEQINT.NET>
> To: Edgar Hauster <bconcept_at_hotmail.com>
> Cc: Fleming Cornel <cornel.fleming_at_virgin.net>; Czernowitz Discussion Group <czernowitz-l_at_cornell.edu>; Liviu Carare <lcarare_at_yahoo.com>; Eytan Fichman <fichblue_at_aol.com>; Stephen Winters <stephen.winters_at_atlantichealth.org>; Ruth Gold <glasgold_at_bellsouth.net>; Frieda Tabak <frieda_tabak_at_yahoo.com>; Taylor Miriam <mirtaylo_at_indiana.edu>; Gerhard Schreiber <gerhardrodica_at_aol.com>; Fishler Irene <irenef_at_netvision.net.il>; Iosif Vaisman <iosif.vaisman_at_gmail.com>; Marianne Hirsch <mh2349_at_columbia.edu>; frenchczern1_at_yahoo.com; Cooper Fanny <fannybcooper_at_gmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 2:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [Cz-L] Popovici
>
> a.. Edgar
> b.. the assistance has to be given without any financial gain expected in return
> c.. This is why !! does not meet the criteria,
> Hardy
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edgar Hauster" <bconcept_at_hotmail.com>
> To: "HARDY BREIER" <HARDY3_at_bezeqint.net>
> Cc: "Fleming Cornel" <cornel.fleming_at_virgin.net>; "Czernowitz Discussion Group" <czernowitz-l_at_cornell.edu>; "Liviu Carare" <lcarare_at_yahoo.com>; "Eytan Fichman" <fichblue_at_aol.com>; "Stephen Winters" <stephen.winters_at_atlantichealth.org>; "Ruth Gold" <glasgold_at_bellsouth.net>; "Frieda Tabak" <frieda_tabak_at_yahoo.com>; "Taylor Miriam" <mirtaylo_at_indiana.edu>; "Gerhard Schreiber" <gerhardrodica_at_aol.com>; "Fishler Irene" <irenef_at_netvision.net.il>; "Iosif Vaisman" <iosif.vaisman_at_gmail.com>; "Marianne Hirsch" <mh2349_at_columbia.edu>; <frenchczern1_at_yahoo.com>; "Cooper Fanny" <fannybcooper_at_gmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 10:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [Cz-L] Popovici
>
>
> Hardy…
>
> Thank you so much for your mail. I am not sure about the right answer to your question
>
> "If there was not a Traian Popovici as mayor in '41, would 20,000 Jews have stayed in Czernowitz?"
>
> but what I definitely learned from my research during the last few months, is, that Traian Popovici was for sure not a saint and the extent of incompetence and corruption concerning the issuing of indespensability certificates was so tremendous, that - as brought to us by and thanks to Liviu Carare - this Inquiry Commission was appointed, in order to investigate the irregularities.
>
> On the other hand, when it comes to deportations and mass murder, isn't it preferable to have an incapable and bribable administration instead of a perfect functioning killing apparatus?
>
> In my eyes, the rescue operation of the Czernowitz Jews was a - NON COORDINATED - joint venture, in due consideration of
>
> - the social, cultural and economic position of the Jews in Czernowitz,
> - the real indespensability of the Jews for the functioning of the town,
> - the multicultural connections of the Jews inside and outside of Czernowitz and Romania,
> - the positive, or at least not negative, intervention of the local German Conulate (Schellhorn),
> - the financial capability of the Jews from Czernowitz,
> - the support by the Romanian Jewish Federation, etc., etc.
>
> Finally, please let me try, to give an answer to your points:
>
> 1. Popovici cannot be Righteous. - Why not? There are in total 23,788 Righteous among the Nations. Romania ranks with 60 in the midfield between Vietnam (1) and Poland (6,195).
>
> 2. Streets names and memorials are inadequate. - Street names and memorials come and go, even cities - Petrograd/Leningrad/Saint Petersburg - are changing their names.
>
> 4. Pictures in the museum and Rathaus inappropriate. - How many portraits of Czernowitz mayors are hanging in the Czernowitz Town Hall? Charles Rosner will know!
>
> 5. The Dustin Hoffman film is out. - I don't believe this project has ever been real. Czernowitzer would have said "Luftprojekt" by analogy to "Luftmensch".
>
> Enjoying the discussion thread! Czernowitz-L Discussion Group at its best! More facts and figures to come!
>
>
> Edgar Hauster
> Lent/The Netherlands
>
>
>
> Am 21.03.2012 um 06:24 schrieb HARDY BREIER:
>
> > The Liviu Carare paper in which Popovici was sacked from office in '42
> > because of corruption related to the ghetto exemption permits is a heavy
> > blow to our sanctification campaign of T. Popovici.
> > If the allegations prove right then:
> > 1. Popovici cannot be Righteous.
> > 2. Streets names and memorials are inadequate.
> > 4. Pictures in the museum and Rathaus inappropriate.
> > 5. The Dustin Hoffman film is out.
> > There remains only one little question which nags my brain:
> > If there was not a Traian Popovici as mayor in '41 would 20,000 jews
> > have stayed in Czernowitz ?
> > Hardy
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edgar Hauster" <bconcept_at_hotmail.com>
> > To: "cornel fleming" <cornel.fleming_at_virgin.net>
> > Cc: "Czernowitz Discussion Group" <czernowitz-l_at_cornell.edu>; "Liviu Carare"
> > <lcarare_at_yahoo.com>; "Eytan Fichman" <fichblue_at_aol.com>; "Stephen Winters"
> > <stephen.winters_at_atlantichealth.org>; "Ruth Gold" <glasgold_at_bellsouth.net>;
> > "Frieda Tabak" <frieda_tabak_at_yahoo.com>; "Taylor Miriam"
> > <mirtaylo_at_indiana.edu>; "Gerhard Schreiber" <gerhardrodica_at_aol.com>;
> > "Fishler Irene" <irenef_at_netvision.net.il>; "Iosif Vaisman"
> > <iosif.vaisman_at_gmail.com>; "Marianne Hirsch" <mh2349_at_columbia.edu>; "Breier
> > Hardy" <hardy3_at_bezeqint.net>
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 8:42 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Cz-L] Popovici
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Cornel...
> >>
> >> Thank you! According to yesterday's phone conversation with Liviu =
> >> Carare, he is supposed to complete his thesis by October this year and =
> >> it will be most probably in English, including the present article. I'm =
> >> waiting eagerly on the publication, as perhaps most of us do.
> >>
> >> Best wishes!
> >>
> >>
> >> Edgar Hauster
> >> The Netherlands
> >>
> >>
> >> Am 20.03.2012 um 19:17 schrieb cornel fleming:
> >>
> >>> Edgar....amazing!! When will there be an English translation??? =
> >> Cornel
> >>> =20
> >>
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>

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This moderated discussion group is for information exchange on the subject of
 Czernowitz and Sadagora Jewish History and Genealogy. The opinions expressed
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Received on 2012-03-21 11:08:09