FW: [Cz-L] Being Rumanian/size of population of Cernauti: your 8/15/15 email

From: Edgar Hauster <bconcept_at_hotmail.com_at_nowhere.org>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 08:50:47 +0200
To: Bruce Reisch <bir1_at_nysaes.cornell.edu>, Jerome Schatten <romers_at_shaw.ca>, Gary Rogovin <grcpa_at_att.net>


Oops, sorry for confusion. The mail below ist the correct one to the List, displaying the right link. Please disregard the one before.<br><br>Thank you!<br><br><br>Edgar Hauster<br><br><br>----------------------------------------<br>&gt; From: bconcept_at_hotmail.com<br>&gt; To: grcpa99@att.net<br>&gt; CC: czernowitz-l@cornell.edu<br>&gt; Subject: RE: [Cz-L] Being Rumanian/size of population of Cernauti: your 8/15/15 email<br>&gt; Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 08:47:36 +0200<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Gary…<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Please let me redirect you to the page 78 out of 91, which displays the Romanian census pages no. 120/121 you are looking for. But in order to make it even more easier to use, I’ve posted all four pages for the Czernowitz Department - including page no. 120/121 for the Czernowitz Municipality - at our Ehpes.com Blog:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; http://ehpes.com/blog1/2015/08/25/census-of-romania-for-the-year-1930-czernowitz-department/<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I do hope these data will be useful to you!<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Edgar Hauster<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; ----------------------------------------<br>&gt; &gt; From: grcpa99@att.net<br>&gt; &gt; To: bconcept@hotmail.com<br>&gt; &gt; CC: czernowitz-l@cornell.edu<br>&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [Cz-L] Being Rumanian/size of population of Cernauti: your 8/15/15 email<br>&gt; &gt; Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 23:17:20 -0700<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; 8-24-15<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Dear Mr. Hauster,<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; I downloaded the original General Census of the Population of Romania as per<br>&gt; &gt; 29th December 1930 as per the link that you provided. According to the<br>&gt; &gt; "frame" (window top) there are 91 pages. However if you scroll through the<br>&gt; &gt; pages which are numbered in Roman numerals, there are no pages 120/121.<br>&gt; &gt; After page 109 (C1X) there are six pages of maps. The next page after the<br>&gt; &gt; 6th page of maps is numbered 125 (CXXV) and the bottom of that page says<br>&gt; &gt; "Volume 2". Then there are another eight pages of maps followed immediately<br>&gt; &gt; by page 143 (CXLIII). In addition, I don't read Rumanian but I do read<br>&gt; &gt; Spanish and can basically work my way through the wording.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Are you sure your reference to pages 120/121 is correct?<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Can you please provide assistance?<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Thank you Sir.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Gary Rogovin<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; .<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; ----- Original Message -----<br>&gt; &gt; From: "Edgar Hauster" &lt;bconcept@hotmail.com&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; To: "Gary Rogovin" &lt;grcpa1@gmail.com&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Cc: "Czernowitz Discussion Group" &lt;czernowitz-l@cornell.edu&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2015 9:59 AM<br>&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: [Cz-L] Being Rumanian/size of population of Cernauti: your<br>&gt; &gt; 8/12/15 email<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Gary...<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Let me make one more attempt to get a response to your questions:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; 1. The number of non-Jews for the Municipality of Czernowitz was not a<br>&gt; &gt; deduction from my side, but relies on the data out of the General Census of<br>&gt; &gt; the Population of Romania as per 29th December 1930.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; 2. Please download the original General Census of the Population of Romania<br>&gt; &gt; as per 29th December 1930 at<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; http://hauster.de/data/CensusRomania1930.pdf<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; and scroll down to pages 120/121. In the line no. 1 you'll find as total<br>&gt; &gt; number for population of the Municipality of Czernowitz/Municipiul Cernauti<br>&gt; &gt; 112,427, to be subdivided as follows:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; 42,592 Jews<br>&gt; &gt; 69,835 non-Jews, i. e.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; 30,367 Romanians<br>&gt; &gt; 568 Hungarians<br>&gt; &gt; 16,359 Germans<br>&gt; &gt; 1,521 Russians<br>&gt; &gt; 11,130 Ruthenians<br>&gt; &gt; 29 Serbs, Croatians, Slovenians<br>&gt; &gt; 78 Bulgarians<br>&gt; &gt; 226 Czechs, Slovacs<br>&gt; &gt; 8,986 Poles<br>&gt; &gt; 11 Greeks<br>&gt; &gt; 59 Armenians<br>&gt; &gt; 30 Turks<br>&gt; &gt; 19 Gagauz people<br>&gt; &gt; 15 Gypsies<br>&gt; &gt; 103 others<br>&gt; &gt; 334 non declared<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; 3. Please check kine no. 1 column 33 on page 121. There you are going to<br>&gt; &gt; find for the Municipality of Czernowitz/Municipiul Cernauti 32,731 people,<br>&gt; &gt; who declared having Yiddish as mother tongue.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; 4. I always assumed that all those people, who declared having Yiddish as<br>&gt; &gt; their mother tongue, were Jews.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; I do hope, dear Gary, these answers to your four questions will be helpful<br>&gt; &gt; to you. Warmest wishes!<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Edgar Hauster<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; ----------------------------------------<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; From: grcpa1@gmail.com<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; To: bconcept@hotmail.com<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; CC: czernowitz-l@cornell.edu<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [Cz-L] Being Rumanian/size of population of Cernauti: your<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; 8/12/15 email<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 17:23:17 -0700<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; 8-14-15<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Dear Mr. Hauster,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Thank you for your immediately below email response.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Perhaps it is I who should say I'm sorry for the confusion, not yourself.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; However, I do have the following questions:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; 1) can you please tell me how you deduced that 69, 835 were non Jews. I<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; understand that you multiplied 112,487 X 62.10 % to arrive at 69,835. But<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; how did you come up with 62.10%?<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; 2) specifically where does the 69,835 come from? Can you direct me to the<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; census that has that specific breakdown and how you calculated that<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; figure?<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; 3) how did you arrive at the 32,731 figure?<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; 4) how do you know that none of the 32,731 (= 29.10 %) who declared<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Yiddish<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; as their mother tongue were Jewish? Does that not seem unusual that out of<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; that many Yiddish speaking persons, not one is a Jew?<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Mr. Hauster, I do not mean to beat this to death. Your answers to the<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; above<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; four questions should hopefully provide the needed information to put this<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; all to bed.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Thank you Sir.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Respectfully,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Gary Rogovin<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; ----- Original Message -----<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; From: "Edgar Hauster" &lt;bconcept@hotmail.com&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; To: "Gary Rogovin" &lt;grcpa1@gmail.com&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Cc: "Czernowitz Discussion Group" &lt;czernowitz-l@cornell.edu&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 11:47 AM<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Subject: RE: [Cz-L] Being Rumanian/size of population of Cernauti<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Gary...<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Sorry for confusion and let me try to explain it in another way: In 1930<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; the<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; total population of the municipality of Cernauti (Czernowitz), i. e. the<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; urban population, added up to<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; 112,427 inhabitants, out of which<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; 42,592 (= 37.90 %) were Jews,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; 69,835 (= 62.10 %) were non-Jews.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; The summation of the three figures (42,592 + 32,731 + 42,932) DOESN'T WORK<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; since these figures stand for the answer on three different questions,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; raised by the interviewers:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; What is your nativity? 42,592 (= 37.90 %) declared themselves being<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Jewish.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; What is your monther tongue? 32,731 (= 29.10 %) declared Yiddish as mother<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; tongue.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; What is your religion? 42,932 (= 38.20 %) declared Mozaic religion.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; I do hope now, after mentioning the number of non-Jews (69,835 = 62.10 %)<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; explicitly, the calculation becomes much more understandable. Sorry once<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; again for confusion.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Edgar Hauster<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; ----------------------------------------<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; From: grcpa1@gmail.com<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; To: bconcept@hotmail.com<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; CC: czernowitz-l@cornell.edu<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [Cz-L] Being Rumanian/size of population of Cernauti<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 11:07:45 -0700<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 8-12-15<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Mr. Hauster,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Thank you for your reply. However, I still cannot reconcile the 112,427<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; total to your below breakdown of Jews AND non-Jews, out of which,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; attention,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; multiple entries,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 42,592 (= 37.90 %) were Jewish,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 32,731 (= 29.10 %) declared Yiddish as mother tongue,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 42,932 (= 38,20 %) declared Mozaic religion.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; I assume that by multiple entries, you are referring to the above three<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; (45,592 +32,731+42,932).<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Can you please show me how you arrived at 112,247 (i.e. X+Y+Z+ etc. =<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 112,247)<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Thank you sir.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Gary Rogovin<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; ----- Original Message -----<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; From: "Edgar Hauster" &lt;bconcept@hotmail.com&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; To: "Gary Rogovin" &lt;grcpa1@gmail.com&gt;; "alexander rosner"<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;alexanderrosner@yahoo.de&gt;; "Hardy Breier" &lt;hardy3@bezeqint.net&gt;; "Cornel<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Fleming" &lt;cornel.fleming@virgin.net&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: "Czernowitz Discussion Group" &lt;czernowitz-l@cornell.edu&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 12:58 AM<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: RE: [Cz-L] Being Rumanian/size of population of Cernauti<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Gary...<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; According to the "Census of Romania for the Year 1930 for the Province of<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Bukovina"<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; http://czernowitz.blogspot.de/2014/05/census-of-romania-for-year-1930.html<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; the TOTAL population of the municipality of Cernauti (Czernowitz), i. e.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; URBAN population, was in 1930:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 112,427 Jews AND non-Jews, out of which, attention, multiple entries,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 42,592 (= 37.90 %) were Jewish,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 32,731 (= 29.10 %) declared Yiddish as mother tongue,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 42,932 (= 38,20 %) declared Mozaic religion.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; The Province of Bukovina in total was subdivided in 5 departments (URBAN<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; AND<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; RURAL POPULATION), namely:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 94,816 for the Campulung Department out of which 7,738 (= 8.20 %) were<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Jewish,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 306,194 for the Cernauti Department out of which 51,247 (= 16.70 %) were<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Jewish,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 160,778 for the Radauti Department out of which 11,508 (= 7.20 %) were<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Jewish,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 169,894 for the Storojinet Department out of which 15,322 (= 9.00 %) were<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Jewish,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 121,327 for the Suceava Department out of which 6,677 (= 5.50 %) were<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Jewish,<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 92,492 (= 10,80 %) were Jewish out of a total population of 853,009 for<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Province of Bukovina. Among the non-Jews were:<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 379,691 Romanians (= 44.50 %)<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 11,881 Hungarians (= 1.40 %)<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 75,533 Germans (= 8.90 %)<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 7,948 Russians (= 0.90 %)<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 236,130 Ruthenians (= 27.70 %)<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 63 Serbs, Croatians, Slovenians (less than 0.10 %)<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 133 Bulgarians (less than 0.10 %)<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 671 Czechs, Slovacs (less than 0.10 %)<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 30,580 Poles (= 3.60 %)<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 12,437 Hutsuls (= 1.50 %)<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 23 Greeks (less than 0.10 %)<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 1 Albanian (less than 0.10 %)<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 260 Armenians (less than 0.10 %)<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 49 Turks (less than 0.10 %)<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 28 Gaguz people (less than 0.10 %)<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 2,164 Gypsies (= 0.30 %)<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 2,317 others (= 0.30 %)<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 608 non declared (less than 0.10 %)<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; These figures make clear, why many of us refer to Czernowitz as a "Jewish<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; city", while the Jewish share of the population for the Bukovina in total<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; was just over 10 %. I do hope these data will be helpful to you (and<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; others)<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; and illustrate the multiethnicity of Bukovina.<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Edgar Hauster<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; This moderated discussion group is for information exchange on the subject<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; of<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; Czernowitz and Sadagora Jewish History and Genealogy. The opinions<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; expressed<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; in these posts are the opinions of the original poster only and not<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; necessarily<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; the opinions of the List Owner, the Webmaster or any other members<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; or entities connected with this mailing list. The Czernowitz-L list has<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; an associated web site at http://czernowitz.ehpes.com that includes a<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; searchable archive of all messages posted to this list. 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Received on 2015-08-28 13:28:13

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