Dear Berti
Thank you for your intelligent and witty response.
I will add some information about my own family with regard to the topic. My mother was born in a village near Czernowitz in 1913 and later lived there (and attended the university) and my grandmother was born in 1894 in another nearby village.
My great grandfather was a religious man who went to schul daily. He was also an educated and enlightened man who taught my grandmother to read the Austrian newspapers and voice her opinions which she did, in perfect German, to the end of her life. Neither she nor my mother ever hesitated to describe their lives or to express their thoughts - both were spared from the holocaust by a combination of luck and the help of others.
It’s a long story. I am translating my mother’s memoirs (she dictated them when she was in her 80s) from German into English and might one day have them completed ….
Karin Perrin
London
Sent from my iPhone
On 28 Nov 2022, at 10:12, Miriam Suss <msuss_at_bigpond.net.au> wrote:
Hi Berti
As always it’s a delight to read your contribution- a veritable treasure of information of cultural characteristics and historical facts from the Bukovina. Especially interesting from someone with memories of those days.
I miss similar conversations with my mother Cecilia (born in Cz in 1918).
Thanks for replying to Boaz’s difficult question.
Miriam Suss
Melbourne Australia
Email: msuss_at_bigpond.net.au
On 27 Nov 2022, at 11:00 pm, Berti Glaubach <berti.glaubach_at_gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Boaz,
I suppose that nobody from the group even considered answering your question. Up to now all second or third generation Czernowitzers were interested in information about the whereabouts of their ancestors, births, marriages, deaths, families, careers etc. All about facts. There are of course personal stories collected on Ehpes, stories that might give an opening to character traits of some parents or great parents, but your question is so generally formulated that I doubt there is an intelligent answer to it. Still, I decided to make a try of isolating some variables of this complex endeavor, because I don’t quite have other things to do, and given my age I might be one of the few who have personal memories about the cultures you refer to.
I am placed locally and temporarily on the line between Sadagura and Vienna. I/e. born in Czernowitz 1929, half generation between your father and grandfather, geographically and more important culturally, also in a town between them. The gradient from a religiously traditional Jewish society of Sadagura to one more liberal, assimilated, although still mostly concentrated in Leopoldstadt (the 2. Bezirk also called Judenstadt at that time), passed through Czern., which had both characteristics, in time and culturally, proceeding from Sadagura to Vienna.
The Yiddish expression for not giving in, in disputes is to be an Akschen. The royal court of the Sadagura Rebbe, the internal fights and family disputes, the case of the son Bereniu who was brought back to the court by force over the frontier from Suceava (Rumania), are examples of this trait. You may look up the History of the Jews of Bukovina by Gold.
As to Vienna, when I arrived in Israel in 1950, I heard for the first time the expression “Besserwisser”, meaning somebody who knows better, indifferently of what arguments you bring along. It was particularly targeted at Jews coming from Vienna and I had the occasion to prove the assessment personally. A Viennese Jew always knew better – decades later I could confirm from personal experience that the phenomenon was not limited to Jews, a good part of the population of the city “knew better”. Not my personal friends though.
All this is of course to be taken with a grain of salt, it probably was quite standard in the region and at the time.
I suppose the more important cause of the difference of opinion you refer to should be attributed to the generation gap. Your father might have accepted and continued the political opinions of your grandparent but refused to be himself intolerant and as you write, avoiding conflicts that your grandfather would have pleasure to express. Father/son conflicts are often resolved by partial identification (political) and practical opposite behavior i.e., being a nice person.
What shaped the characters of both men will probably mostly remain in the dark. I am still working at the causes in my own life. You really have all the time to ponder about your roots.
Best, Berti.
On Fri, Nov 25, 2022 at 1:10 PM B W <weinboaz_at_gmail.com<mailto:weinboaz_at_gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi group,
My grandfather was born and raised in Sadgura until 1916 when he and family moved to Vienna. He then barely escaped in 1938. I met him several times. He didn’t tolerate disagreement well, especially on political matters. My father, now elderly, is hesitant to express his opinion on anything, and conflict avoidant, except on politics. He’ll steer conversations to politics and then give an uninformed, rigid political opinion - almost like a test of loyalty. I don’t understand these behaviors, and I wonder if it can be attributed to the jewish culture in sadgura or vienna of the time. Do these behaviors ring a bell? Thank you for any information.
Boaz
________________________________
________________________________
This moderated discussion group is for information exchange on the subject of
Czernowitz and Sadagora Jewish History and Genealogy. The opinions expressed
in these posts are the opinions of the original poster only and not necessarily
the opinions of the List Owner, the Webmaster or any other members
or entities connected with this mailing list. The Czernowitz-L list has
an associated web site at
http://czernowitz.ehpes.com that includes a
searchable archive of all messages posted to this list. Beginning in 2021,
archived messages can be found at:
https://www.mail-archive.com/czernowitz-l_at_list.cornell.edu/
To send mail to the list, address it to <Czernowitz-L_at_cornell.edu<mailto:Czernowitz-L_at_cornell.edu>>.
To remove your address from this e-list follow these directions<
https://it.cornell.edu/lyris/leave-e-lists-lyris>.
To receive assistance for this e-list send an e-mail message to:
owner-Czernowitz-L_at_list.cornell.edu<mailto:owner-Czernowitz-L_at_list.cornell.edu>
________________________________
--
Wo Es war, soll Ich sein.
________________________________
________________________________
This moderated discussion group is for information exchange on the subject of
Czernowitz and Sadagora Jewish History and Genealogy. The opinions expressed
in these posts are the opinions of the original poster only and not necessarily
the opinions of the List Owner, the Webmaster or any other members
or entities connected with this mailing list. The Czernowitz-L list has
an associated web site at
http://czernowitz.ehpes.com that includes a
searchable archive of all messages posted to this list. Beginning in 2021,
archived messages can be found at:
https://www.mail-archive.com/czernowitz-l_at_list.cornell.edu/
To send mail to the list, address it to <Czernowitz-L_at_cornell.edu<mailto:Czernowitz-L_at_cornell.edu>>.
To remove your address from this e-list follow these directions<
https://it.cornell.edu/lyris/leave-e-lists-lyris>.
To receive assistance for this e-list send an e-mail message to:
owner-Czernowitz-L_at_list.cornell.edu<mailto:owner-Czernowitz-L_at_list.cornell.edu>
________________________________
________________________________
________________________________
This moderated discussion group is for information exchange on the subject of
Czernowitz and Sadagora Jewish History and Genealogy. The opinions expressed
in these posts are the opinions of the original poster only and not necessarily
the opinions of the List Owner, the Webmaster or any other members
or entities connected with this mailing list. The Czernowitz-L list has
an associated web site at
http://czernowitz.ehpes.com that includes a
searchable archive of all messages posted to this list. Beginning in 2021,
archived messages can be found at:
https://www.mail-archive.com/czernowitz-l_at_list.cornell.edu/
To send mail to the list, address it to <Czernowitz-L_at_cornell.edu<mailto:Czernowitz-L_at_cornell.edu>>.
To remove your address from this e-list follow these directions<
https://it.cornell.edu/lyris/leave-e-lists-lyris>.
To receive assistance for this e-list send an e-mail message to:
owner-Czernowitz-L_at_list.cornell.edu<mailto:owner-Czernowitz-L_at_list.cornell.edu>
________________________________
*******************************************************************************
This moderated discussion group is for information exchange on the subject of
Czernowitz and Sadagora Jewish History and Genealogy. The opinions expressed
in these posts are the opinions of the original poster only and not necessarily
the opinions of the List Owner, the Webmaster or any other members
or entities connected with this mailing list. The Czernowitz-L list has
an associated web site at
http://czernowitz.ehpes.com that includes a
searchable archive of all messages posted to this list. Beginning in 2021,
archived messages can be found at:
https://www.mail-archive.com/czernowitz-l_at_list.cornell.edu/
To send mail to the list, address it to <Czernowitz-L_at_cornell.edu>.
To remove your address from this e-list follow the directions at
https://it.cornell.edu/lyris/leave-e-lists-lyris
To receive assistance for this e-list send an e-mail message to:
owner-Czernowitz-L_at_list.cornell.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Received on 2022-11-28 20:47:27