Re: [Cz-L] Massacres in Bucovina and Czernowitz in 1941

Dear Abraham,

I believe that no one has all the accurate numbers, for what happened during
the Holocaust
in Czernowitz and the Bukovina. Many people are shuffling numbers from
different reports
and trying to decide on the closest estimates.

I have neither the time nor the will to study all the first hand data and
documents, of which
there are a lot. You are right, that it does not matter whether we know the
exact figures.
At the same time, I would like to know which articles or books and which
authors to trust,
when reading about this dark period. At the time that these events took
place, I was a small child.
Probably my parents protected me from knowing the worst of what was
happening, possibly,
I was too young to understand. But now I want to know, and more than wanting
to know,
I want to understand. Wanting to know is just the first step to
understanding.

For the next week, I will be busy with my two older grandchildren and will
not be able
to continue the discussion on this subject.

Best regards and Shavua tov,

Mimi

On 7/11/09 6:47 AM, "Abraham Kogan" <akogan_at_netvision.net.il> wrote:

> Dear All,
> I managed to read the following three sections of the Final Report of the
> International Commission presided by Eli Wiesel.
>
> · "The June-July 1940 Romanian Withdrawal from Bessarabia
> and Northern Bukovina and Its Consequences on Interethnic
> Relations in Romania"
>
>
> · "The Internal and External Circumstances
> of the Annexation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina"
>
> · "Anti-Semitic Propaganda and Official Rhetoric concerning
> the Judeo-Bolshevik Danger: Romanian Jews and Communism between 1938-1944"
>
> The events described in those sections are very detailed and consistent with
> what we knew in Czernowitz, before the Ghetto and during the Ghetto period. A
> great deal of information provided in those chapters is also covered in
> various books published during the last twenty years and also discussed during
> various symposia.
>
> In my view, in hindsight, it is really immaterial today to argue whether the
> figure of 2000 Jews massacred during the first couple of days of the
> Romanian-German occupation or whether the figure was 2500. With all due
> respect to Radu Ioanid's research (I have read his book "Evreii sub regimul
> Antonescu" and other articles) his figures are not always precise. It reminds
> me of the discussion among researchers regarding the number of Jews in
> Czernowitz in late 1939, whether there were 60,000-70,000 or only 50,000.
>
> I also read the text of the presentation "Growing up in Czernowitz" by Dr.
> Julius Scherzer. I think he is younger than me by a couple of years, but I
> found the description of his experiences almost identical with mine. There
> are several details, quite important, that are missing; I imagine they are
> included in his book. Nevertheless, all the events, i.e., everything related
> to the period until he left Czernowitz for Romania, quite exactly reflect my
> own personal experience. I enjoyed very much reading it.
> I'll continue reading the Final Report, as soon as I have more time. For the
> time being, thanks G-d I am very busy.
>
> Regards, to all of you,
> Abraham K.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Miriam Taylor [mailto:mirtaylo_at_indiana.edu]
> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 5:09 PM
> To: Marianne Hirsch; RUTH GOLD
> Cc: Lucca Ginsburg; Avraham Kogan Czern; Freddy Hansi Korn; Jerry Lapides;
> Yanku Nelly Pessate; romers_at_shaw.ca; Wolf Agi Sapira Miami; Michael Elenor
> Surkis; Marianne Taylor czernowitz; Pepi Voloch
> Subject: Re: [Cz-L] Massacres in Bucovina and Czernowitz in 1941
>
> Dear Marianne, Dear All,
>
> Thanks for writing,
>
> Radu Ioanid took most of his information from the ³Cartea Neagra² by Matatias
> Carp,
> but where did Matatias Carp get his information from? I know he kept a diary,
> but where did he get the information for what he wrote in his diary?
>
> About the number of Jews saved by Traian Popovici, there is sufficient
> evidence to know:
> that Popovici had received Antonescu¹s permission to give 15600 authorizations
> to stay in Czernowitz
> and that he issued another 4000 temporary permits on his own decision.
>
> We also know that in the summer of 1942, the Popovici authorizations were
> declared invalid
> and renewed deportations started on June 7, followed by further deportations
> in July.
> This knowledge is based on documents in the Chernivtsi city archives and
> corroborated in part by eyewitnesses.
>
> As a footnote:
> Radu Ioanid advised me to have the inscription on the plaque say:
> ³Traian Popovici temporarily saved 19600 Jews from being deported².
> He wanted the plaque to give not only the truthful information, but also ³all
> the truth².
> I did not follow his advice for two reasons:
>
> 1. Traian Popovici had issued 19600 authorizations and this number clearly
> defines
> his good intentions.
> 2. Those who had remained in Czernowitz till June or July 1942, even if
> eventually deported to Transnistria,
> had a much better chance at surviving than those who were deported during
> the fall and winter of 1941.
> Many of us, I include my family and myself, were able to hide during the
> summer of 1942 deportations.
> It would have been impossible to hide during the earlier deportations.
>
> Mimi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 7/9/09 8:02 PM, "Marianne Hirsch" <mh2349_at_columbia.edu> wrote:
> Dear MImi, I just checked the Romanian version of Cartea Neagra which Leo and
> I cite in our chapter on this subject and Carp confirms the figure of 2000.
> In fact, that is where Ioanid gets most of his figures. And in fact, a lot of
> the numbers are ambiguous as we know from the saga of the plaque.
>
>
>
> best, Marianne
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 9, 2009, at 4:45 PM, RUTH GOLD wrote:
>
> Dear Mimi,
>
> I know for a fact that Romanian soldiers together with the German
> Einsatzgruppen murdered in 24 hours, two thousand Jews and the Chief Rabbi
> Mark.
> Ruth Glasberg Gold
> ________________________________________
> From: Miriam Taylor <mirtaylo_at_indiana.edu>
> To: CZERNOWITZ-L <Czernowitz-L_at_cornell.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2009 10:42:19 AM
> Subject: [Cz-L] Massacres in Bucovina and Czernowitz in 1941
>
> Reading "The holocaust in Romania" by Radu Ioanid, I have come across
> information, I either was not aware of, or possibly the author is mistaken.
>
> For instance:
>> > The Romanian army also executed 18 Jews in Tereblecea.
> Is Tereblecea the same as Tereblesti?
>> > One of the largest slaughters on that day took place in Cernauti, the
>> > Capital of Bucovina, where two thousand Jews were killed by Romanian
>> > soldiers working in league with local residents, gendarmes and German
>> > soldiers. Two mass graves at the Jewish cemetery received 250 corpses
>> each,
>> > a third somewhat fewer.
> By that day the author means July 5th, 1941.
> Was the number of Jews killed in Czernowitz on that day, really 2000?
> Or was it about 700, as the number of those buried in common graves
> indicates? Where is the third grave?
>> > German troops executed another four hundred Jews on July 9, setting fire to
>> > the main synagogue with incendiary grenades.
> Was "the main synagogue" the "Tempel" set on fire by pouring gasoline on
> the floor and setting it on fire? Or was it indeed set on fire with
> incendiary grenades? Were the 400 people executed on that day buried
> at Bila?
>
> Please forgive me for bringing up the details of this gruesome subject.
> Like Marc Cohen, I believe that we should know. I also think, that among
> members of the list there may exist first-hand and second-hand knowledge
> of events which no longer exists anywhere else.
>
> Mimi
>
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Received on 2009-07-12 20:13:21