Re: [Cz-L] information about the Rebbes

Thanks for the information I would like to add my two cents

Sorry but I do take offense at the concept of Rebbe - chassid relationship
being called a Christian Communion, the idea of a Chacham or Rebbe or Rabbi
as an intermediary is found already in the Talmud, where we are told to ask
them to intercede and pray on behalf of one who is sick, it certainly
predates Christianity and if anyone borrowed the idea, it was them from us
and not the other way around.

[Babylonian Talmud Baba Bathra p. 116a states, "If a person has a sick
person in his house he should go to a chacham (a wise man) and he will
request mercy for him." If we do not need intermediaries why not pray
ourselves? Why go to a Chacham?]

While there is no doubt that G-d is the one making the miracles Chassidim do
believe (I am one and I study and teach Chassidic philosophy) that the Rebbe
has the power to perform miracles much as any orthodox Jew believes any
righteous person or Tzadik has this power, although it comes from G-d.

Thus we say that Moshe did miracles for the Jewish people, although we know
that G-d was behind them all.

(See Maimonides Mishne Torah Foundations of Torah Chap. 7:1 "The Jews did
not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed.
Whenever anyone's belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering
doubts, ... All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were
because" notice he always says that Moses performed the miracles even though
G-d is behind this power.)

This issue specifically caused a rift later on between the Eastern
Galicianer brand of Chassidim and their Polish counterparts in the West who
felt the role of Rebbe should focus less on miracles and more on being a
mentor and teacher.

(btw the Baal Shem Tov emerged in Mezibuz not in Mezritch, Ukraine. It was
his disciple the Maggid DovBer who later held the mantle of leadership in
Mezritch.)

Kol Tuv,
R' Tal Moshe Zwecker
Director Machon Be'er Mayim Chaim
www.chassidusonline.com
chassidusonline_at_gmail.com
Phone: 972-2-992-1218 / Cell: 972-54-842-4725
VoIP: 516-320-6022
eFax: 1-832-213-3135
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Heger" <pheger_at_gmail.com>
To: <Czernowitz-L_at_cornell.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 2:03 PM
Subject: [Cz-L] information about the Rebbes

> Following the latest correspondence about the Rebbes and Czernowitz, I
> would like to correct a few mistaken views about the Rebbe's (distinct
> from the Rabbis in Yiddish vernacular). It is true that in German the
> Rebbe was called WunderRabbi, (I do not know who coined this expression),
> but this was not perceived as his function.
>
> In order not to be suspected of being an orthodox defender of Hassidism, I
> wish to declare that though I was educated in an orthodox family and
> milieu (Yeshiwoth in Wijnitz and Jerusalem) I am utterly irreligious and
> critical of the theological foundation of Hassidism. However, since I know
> it from the inside and most of my family members are fervent Hassidim, I
> believe being able to think about this movement in an impartial way.
>
> I do not intend to go into the question of the circumstances that
> engendered the emergence of the Hassidic Movement and its founder the Baal
> Shem Tov in Mezritch, Ukraine, and soon expanded in that area, despite the
> strong opposition of the Lithuanian intellectual Jews, led by the
> charismatic and legendary Gaon of Wilna. It demonstrates that this
> movement fulfilled the need of this segment of the Jewish society in that
> area and at that time. It offered the wretched Jews hope, a path to
> attain, by intermediary of the Rebbe, an intimacy with God (a sort of
> Christian Communion) and a motive for joy, expressed by ecstatic song and
> dance.
>
> The Rebbe does not make wonders; the Hassidim believe that he has a closer
> relationship to God than they have, and therefore ask him to pray for them
> to God and plead for the fulfillment of their requests. The Hassidim
> present to the Rebbe a written note (a Kwittel) with their name and
> requests and he wishes them a realization of their requests. The Rebbe's
> wish is a pleading to God, and when it is fulfilled the Hassidim believe
> that it occurred because of the Rebbe's invocation, and possibly a
> miracle, when the Rabbe's promise happened. This is not identical with the
> assumption that the Rebbe made miracles, but rather that God made the
> miracles, induced by the Rebbe's invocation.
>
> Though, as said above, I am critical of the current hassidic movement,
> from many aspects, it is nowadays a vibrant segment of Jewish society,
> spread over the entire world, and as such is studied and researched in
> many academies. One can accept it or rebut it, but it is not a subject of
> derision. As a matter of fact, The Jewish community of Czernowitz was
> composed roughly of 3 segments: at one end the orthodox, who kept the
> Sabbath and other religious obligations, at the other end assimilated
> Jews, who barely could read the Kaddish in Hebrew characters, and in the
> middle the bulk of society, whose stores were open on Sabbath, but went to
> the Synagogue for prayers Sabbath morning and holidays, and gave
> "Kwittels" to the Rebbes at their visit to Czernowitz. There were very few
> real "Epicorsim" (from the Greek philosopher Epicurus) or atheists in
> Czernowitz.
>
> I do not take a position whether the tales of the Rebbes has a place in
> the Czernowitz website, I just thought it appropriate to inform
> objectively, as I believe, its readers of the hassidic movement's nature.
>
> Pessach/Paul Heger
>
> P.S. Answer to Mimi: The Rabbi of Sadigura or as called the Sadigurer
> Rebbe was a scion of the Ruzhin Dynasty, started by the Ruzhiner, who
> escaped from Russia and settled in Sadugura. They behaved like a royal
> dynasty; the male children, usually except one who remained, left Sadigura
> and became the Rebbe of the location where they lived, taking the name of
> the town, as for example, Boianer, from Boian in Bukovina, Kipitchinizer
> from a "stettl" in Galizia and so on. The Wijnitzer Rebbe came from
> another dynasty, founded by Rabbi Menahem Mendel of Kossov, a town in
> Galizia, close to Wijnitz in Bukovina.

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Received on 2009-11-05 12:37:31