Aw: Re: Re: [Cz-L] A hidden prayer room

Dear Hardy, dear Mimi, dear all,

Hardy perfectly hit the point. Many people in Ukraine grow up in a space without history. The holocaust did not exist in Soviet school books. Remember the mass grave next to river Prut in Czernowitz. There are two monuments. One from the Soviet periode - saying that Soviet citizens were murdered there - the second errected after the independence of Ukraine - saying that Jews were murdered there. When I ask the Ukrainian volunteers what they learned in school about the Holocaust, the answer is always the same, barely nothing. Ukraine still struggels with the Soviet past and not every change is welcomed by nationalists. Therefore initiatives like the one of the Jewish museum in Czernowitz are extremely important. The museum offers education for teachers and educational materials for school lessons. A similar project is run by the Institute of Urban Studies in Lviv. In this projects in particular local events are teached and not events that took place somewhere on the moon.

In a space without history a "theme restaurant" like the one next to the Golden Rose looks exotic to most of the visitors but would not be identified as anti-Semitic. And Hardy is right, those who know, eat eslwhere. Anyway the place is far to expensive for most of the locals.

Nevertheless there are signs of hope. A few days ago the cabinet of ministers in Kyiv decided to have a commemoration site on the ground of the Golden Rose - ending a long struggle in the city administration and following the wishes of the local Jewish community.

Best wishes,
Christian

Gesendet: Montag, 18. August 2014 um 06:50 Uhr
Von: "HARDY BREIER" <HARDY3_at_bezeqint.net>
An: "Miriam Taylor" <mirtaylo_at_indiana.edu>
Cc: "Christian Herrmann" <cyberorange_at_gmx.de>, "Stephen Winters" <ericleroy_at_aol.com>, "Kreindler Simon" <simonkreindler_at_sympatico.ca>, "Czernowitz Genealogy and History" <czernowitz-l_at_list.cornell.edu>
Betreff: Re: Aw: Re: [Cz-L] A hidden prayer room
Funny, but there may even not be antisemitism in all this
The Jews are so far away lost in history.
A faraway exotic tribe who once lived here .
The ones who remember are gone.
The young ones dont know.
The young who know eat elsewhere.
"Vater unser der Du bist".
Hardy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Miriam Taylor" <mirtaylo_at_indiana.edu>
To: "HARDY BREIER" <HARDY3_at_bezeqint.net>
Cc: "Christian Herrmann" <cyberorange_at_gmx.de>; "Stephen Winters"
<ericleroy_at_aol.com>; <simonkreindler_at_sympatico.ca>; "Czernowitz Genealogy
and History" <czernowitz-l_at_list.cornell.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2014 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: Aw: Re: [Cz-L] A hidden prayer room

> Hardy's questions made me realize that I made one very large mistake;
> Lviv is no longer part of Poland. In Poland all former private properties
> have been returned to their previous owners, whether Christian or Jewish.
> The same in Romania and Hungary, but in the Ukraine, I believe that
> private
> or communal properties have not been returned to their former owners.
> Think about the "Tempel".
>
> It is therefore unlikely that the Jewish community of Lviv sold the land
> on which the golden Rose synagogue once stood to the present owner.
> I have no idea who the present owner is.
> From what I could observe in one visit, the cafe does well,
> it is right in the center of the city.
> Hardy asks whether the Anti-Semitic gimmick is a good idea, my answer:
> Probably, I saw no demonstrators in front of the Cafe.
> I doubt that it is frequented only by anti-Semites, but it is not shunned
> by the local people.
>
> Do you know why many people did not fight fascism as soon as it reared
> its ugly head?
> Not being Jewish they saw no reason to fight against Anti-Semitism.
> When the fascists killed the insane, they did not care, no one in their
> families was insane.
> When the Fascists arrested and killed communists, they did not care, they
> were not communists.
> Eventually the Fascists arrested and killed people at random, but there
> was no one left to fight
> for the victims.
>
> I do not know whether Anti Semitism is punishable in the Ukraine, it is
> not punishable
> in England, France, Sweden or Norway.
>
> Where do they buy the Matzah? Eich soll azoi wissen fun Tzures ( may I
> know as little of troubles).
>
> No, there is no Polish government in Lviv. (mea culpa).
>
> Mimi
>
> On Aug 17, 2014, at 11:23 PM, HARDY BREIER wrote:
>
>> Mimi. A few questions :
>> 1. Who runs the place ?
>> 2. Is it doing well ?
>> 3. Is antisemitism punishable in Lviv ?
>> 4. If this sales gimmick a good idea ?
>> 5. Where do they take the matze from ?
>> 6. Is there Polish government in Lviv ?
>>
>> I imagine you cant answer any of the above but you
>> Hardy
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Miriam Taylor"
>> <mirtaylo_at_indiana.edu>
>> To: "Christian Herrmann" <cyberorange_at_gmx.de>
>> Cc: "Stephen Winters" <ericleroy_at_aol.com>;
>> <simonkreindler_at_sympatico.ca>; "Czernowitz Genealogy and History"
>> <czernowitz-l_at_list.cornell.edu>
>> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2014 12:09 AM
>> Subject: Re: Aw: Re: [Cz-L] A hidden prayer room
>>
>>
>> Dear Christian, Dear Stephen, and dear Czernowitzers,
>>
>> Two years ago I went with Christian and some friends to the "Golden
>> Rose" cafe.
>> I was so shocked by the experience that I was speechless.
>> The menu we were given on entering, contained no prices. Now I do not
>> remember clearly,
>> Whether I noticed this immediately or not. I certainly noticed, that
>> when we asked
>> the waitress how much we had to pay, she said that we should bargain
>> over the price.
>> So what is one to conclude? Jews are dishonest, try to take financial
>> advantage of others.
>> And what am I to conclude?
>>
>> Attaching a cafe to the only remaining wall of an old synagogue which
>> was destroyed
>> Precisely because it was Jewish, is, to say the least, an act of
>> Barbarity. Would the Polish government have allowed the remains of a
>> church to be desecrated in a similar manner?
>>
>> What a great business Ploy! A cafe in the ruins of a synagogue!
>> Attractive for different reasons
>> to both Jews and Anti Semites!
>>
>> Oh! I almost forgot; every guest to the cafe is given a piece of Matzah
>> (the mysterious Jewish bread which contains the blood of Christian
>> children)
>>
>> On the other hand; Is it possible that the ground on which the synagogue
>> once stood,
>> Was returned to its rightful owners, the Jewish community of Lvov, who
>> sold it
>> with the remaining wall to a cafe owner? Not impossible.
>>
>> Mimi
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Aug 13, 2014, at 11:41 AM, "Christian Herrmann" <cyberorange_at_gmx.de>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It is still there, Stephen. I have mixed emotions about the place. On
>>> one hand they provide information about the Golden Rose - they have a
>>> well done reconstruction model - on the other hand they spread
>>> stereotypes. Because it appears as a Jewish restaurant you have to
>>> bargain with the waiter for the price of your dishes.
>>>
>>> Christian
>>>
>>>
>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. August 2014 um 16:27 Uhr
>>> Von: "Stephen Winters" <ericleroy_at_aol.com>
>>> An: "<simonkreindler_at_sympatico.ca>" <simonkreindler_at_sympatico.ca>
>>> Cc: "Czernowitz Genealogy and History" <czernowitz- l_at_list.cornell.edu>
>>> Betreff: Re: [Cz-L] A hidden prayer room
>>> What was the status of the somewhat cynical "Hasidic" theme restaurant
>>> next door to the site of the Golden Rose synagogue?
>>>
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Received on 2014-08-18 07:32:47