Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 13:43:21 +0000
To: Devorah Berman <devorahberman_at_gmail.com>
Dear Devorah
Thank you for being in touch. I will advise my findings in due course. It does seem that descendants can obtain citizenship too, but there are so many restrictions.
Best wishes to your mother who is about my age ( albeit a little younger!) and to you.
Karin
Sent from my iPad
On 27 Jan 2021, at 13:20, Devorah Berman <devorahberman_at_gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Karin!
I’ll be very curious to hear what you find. My mother was also born in Bucharest (1953) and her mother was born in Czernovitz during the Austro Hungarian Empire. Please let me know if the Austrian route appears open to you and I will then help my mother attain her Austrian citizenship. If you have children, please let me know if that citizenship can be applied to descendants as well!
Thank you for opening up this discussion and adding so much depth to the investigation. I’m tempted to hire a lawyer but don’t want to spend thousands of dollars chasing a dead end. The research everyone has done this far has been quite helpful!
Warmly,
Devorah
On Wednesday, January 27, 2021, Karin Perrin <karin_at_karinp.co.uk<mailto:karin_at_karinp.co.uk>> wrote:
Hello Dan
I am wondering if I qualify for the Austrian route as I was born in Bucharest (so not the Austria Hungarian Empire) in 1945. But my mother and grandmother were both born in the Austro Hungarian Empire, which became Romanian in 1918 or so. My family did not escape till 1949, including mother and grandmother, many others perished. I have written to the Austrian Embassy here in the (very limited) hope they will give me some information based on my history, just in case they turn out to be one of the helpful Embassies.
Romanian citizenship seems to be the easiest route but from what I have heard also the slowest with thousands of applications which take an inordinate amount of time for them to process (even if they want to).
On another matter: there were many Schachters in Bukovina. My great grandmother was a Schachter too. Not necessarily a relation of yours. One my distant cousins was a Hermann Schachter and his daughter, Alicia, was (is, maybe) a concert pianist living in the US. Any connection?
All the best to all
Karin
From: Alan Gavurin <gavurin_at_gmail.com<mailto:gavurin_at_gmail.com>>
Sent: 27 January 2021 11:44
To: Dan Raynes <danraynes67_at_gmail.com<mailto:danraynes67_at_gmail.com>>
Cc: Rennert Gad <rennert_at_technion.ac.il<mailto:rennert_at_technion.ac.il>>; Karin Perrin <karin_at_karinp.co.uk<mailto:karin_at_karinp.co.uk>>; Arthur von Czernowitz <vonczernowitz_at_yahoo.com<mailto:vonczernowitz_at_yahoo.com>>; czernowitz-l_at_cornell.edu<mailto:czernowitz-l_at_cornell.edu>; glasgold_at_bellsouth.net<mailto:glasgold_at_bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [czernowitz-l] Applying for Romanian Citizenship - Legal Support
Thank you Dan and thank you everyone who has responded and is responding. It certainly seems that lots of people are interested in this issue
What is so strange is the variety of responses, particularly with reference to the Austrian option. Some seem to have had help and encouragement from Austrian Consulates and others seem to have been stuck in very lengthy processes. Some seem to have "open and shut" cases that should qualify for citizenship but are still receiving problems. Others have been "approached" by the Austrian authorities to take up citizenship. It seems like Austria is (very belatedly) trying to improve what it is now doing to address the debt they have to so many of its former Jewish citizens but also that the process is not running in a uniformly, smooth fashion.
My grandparents were born in the Austro-Hungarian territories of Galicia and Bukovina before WW1 and travelled to Germany in 1930. They escaped the Nazis and went to England in 1939. The Austrian rules address their former citizens from what is now Ukraine and Romania but state that they had to escape National Socialist persecution in "the Austrian Republic" before WW2. My understanding of the term "Austrian Republic" is that it is the geographical territory formed in 1918/19 and roughly the same as the current borders of modern day Austria. However, in March 1938 Austria was annexed by Germany in the Anschluss so Austria and Germany were one country from 1938 to 1945. My grandparents and my mother left Germany (Stuttgart) in 1939 so was that technically the same as Austria as the two countries were in fact one unified country?
This may seem like legal nit-picking but it could make the difference to whether or not we qualify under these new Austrian rules
I am not expecting anyone to have the answer to this but I would be interested to hear if any of you have any opinions on this
Many thanks
Alan
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On Wed, 27 Jan 2021 at 03:18, Dan Raynes <danraynes67_at_gmail.com<mailto:danraynes67_at_gmail.com>> wrote:
All,
I have been investigating this for the last few months and I can share what I have learned about European citizenship by descent, at least for my background. I am a US Citizen but very interested in getting my Romanian citizenship. My grandmother is from Raddutz, in Buckovina. She was born there in 1898 and left for the USA in 1920. My grandfather (her husband) came from Russia and I have no interest in that citizenship even if was available. From the other side my great grandparents came from Poland (eventually Lithuania). I did not meet the Poland criteria for citizenship by descent. There were three routes I could go with my grandmother, Romanian, Hungarian and Austrian. As you may know Buckovina, Romania during WW1 and afterwards overlaps with these three countries. I got mixed messages on all these for a long time and went back and forth. I can share what I have learned:
Austria: Unless you can prove that your family left National Socialism after 1933, though you will have better luck if it is after 1938 than this route is out. It took a number of calls to my local Austrian consulate to get the answer. I will say this though they were phenomenally eager to help and if there was a way they would. I was very impressed with the Los Angeles consulate
Hungary: I am not much of a fan of their government right wing and anti immigrant. I do theoretically meet their requirement from background. However they now require you to be fluent in reading, writing and speaking Hungarian. I can respect that after all I would want the same for someone wanting to be a citizen of my country. With their anti immigrant stance though what if you spent a lot of time learning their language and they felt for whatever arbitrary reason you still don't make it.
Romania: I have gotten so many mixed messages on this. The first Romanian law firm told me that since my grandmother was born in Austria-Hungary and did not officially become a Romanian citizen after the Great War before she left for the US than she was in effect stateless so I do not qualify.
I am now talking to a new Romanian law firm that says I do qualify based on the documentation I shared with them and the call my brother and I had with them. We did an initial consulting call that had a fee to it. We are doing research before we decide to go further. We have two major hangups. My grandmother's maiden name in Romania was Schachter. When she came to the US for whatever reason (perhaps US Immigration changed it?) all her documentation in the US now has Schecter. She was born in July 1898. Yet the US did not ask for documentation when you came back than and perhaps she wanted to be younger for marital reasons she changed the year and date in July 1900. So we have to build a case to prove that she is one in the same and it may go to litigation.
Has anyone on here had a similar situation with a grandparent from a former territory of Austria - Hungary that became Romania and they left in the intervening war years?
Thanks
Dan
On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 5:36 AM Rennert Gad <rennert_at_technion.ac.il<mailto:rennert_at_technion.ac.il>> wrote:
With the new law, now in effect in Austria regarding Jews after WWII, I applied through the Austrian embassy in Israel and received a response that they do not think I am eligible. This is not clear to me as my father was born in Austro-Hungary in 1918 before they became “Romania” and his and my mother’s birth registration is in written in German (the spoken language at home which now I understand is more Austrian German than German German). Needless to mention that both of my parents ended spending long periods in camps in Transnistria.
And BTW, they did not have a problem with me having former nationalities
Gadi
From: bounce-125333663-73784726_at_list.cornell.edu<mailto:bounce-125333663-73784726_at_list.cornell.edu> [mailto:bounce-125333663-73784726_at_list.cornell.edu<mailto:bounce-125333663-73784726_at_list.cornell.edu>] On Behalf Of Karin Perrin
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 2:28 PM
To: Alan Gavurin <gavurin_at_gmail.com<mailto:gavurin_at_gmail.com>>
Cc: Arthur von Czernowitz <vonczernowitz_at_yahoo.com<mailto:vonczernowitz_at_yahoo.com>>; czernowitz-l_at_cornell.edu<mailto:czernowitz-l_at_cornell.edu>; glasgold_at_bellsouth.net<mailto:glasgold_at_bellsouth.net>
Subject: RE: [czernowitz-l] Applying for Romanian Citizenship - Legal Support
Sounds very encouraging.
Have read the link and might be a possibility. I will get in touch. You have been most helpful, Alan.
Kind regards
Karin
From: Alan Gavurin <gavurin_at_gmail.com<mailto:gavurin_at_gmail.com>>
Sent: 26 January 2021 12:24
To: Karin Perrin <karin_at_karinp.co.uk<mailto:karin_at_karinp.co.uk>>
Cc: Arthur von Czernowitz <vonczernowitz_at_yahoo.com<mailto:vonczernowitz_at_yahoo.com>>; czernowitz-l_at_cornell.edu<mailto:czernowitz-l_at_cornell.edu>; glasgold_at_bellsouth.net<mailto:glasgold_at_bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [czernowitz-l] Applying for Romanian Citizenship - Legal Support
Hi Karin
Happy to have helped to stimulate this point (along with Arthur, Bertie and others)
re the dual nationality point see below from the Austrian Embassy in London website - I think dual nationality is fine if you qualify using this route (which is another question)
Alan
Citizenship for descendants of victims of National Socialism – Österreichische Botschaft London (bmeia.gv.at)<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmeia.gv.at%2Fen%2Faustrian-embassy-london%2Fservice-for-citizens%2Fcitizenship-for-descendants-of-victims-of-national-socialism%2F&data=04%7C01%7Crennert%40technion.ac.il%7C48af05e741e240ec65d908d8c1f814f9%7Cf1502c4cee2e411c9715c855f6753b84%7C1%7C0%7C637472618547801920%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=8YIxqsFfg7U1FpDBxOmoT9gMaJZFR%2FzviDixvKrACKs%3D&reserved=0>
According to the new § 58c para. 1a of the Austrian Citizenship Act descendants of victims of the National Socialist regime can acquire Austrian citizenship by means of a declaration (“Anzeige”), without having to give up their current citizenship or nationality in return.
Please note, however, that the law in some countries provides for the automatic loss of its citizenship or nationality if you acquire another citizenship. In case of doubt, please check with the competent authority of your home country.
On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 at 12:18, Karin Perrin <karin_at_karinp.co.uk<mailto:karin_at_karinp.co.uk>> wrote:
Hi Alan
A conundrum.
You are encouraging me to investigate the route of Austrian citizenship. The Romanian route is stagnating. Various excuses…
I never thought that joining the Czernowitz group would lead to such interesting conversations… 😊
Karin
From: Alan Gavurin <gavurin_at_gmail.com<mailto:gavurin_at_gmail.com>>
Sent: 26 January 2021 11:36
To: Karin Perrin <karin_at_karinp.co.uk<mailto:karin_at_karinp.co.uk>>
Cc: Arthur von Czernowitz <vonczernowitz_at_yahoo.com<mailto:vonczernowitz_at_yahoo.com>>; czernowitz-l_at_cornell.edu<mailto:czernowitz-l_at_cornell.edu>; glasgold_at_bellsouth.net<mailto:glasgold_at_bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [czernowitz-l] Applying for Romanian Citizenship - Legal Support
Thank you Karin & Arthur for raising the Austrian Citizenship question
Firstly, Karin it seems that you must have a chance to apply again to Austria having already once held citizenship. I think there is a significant element of restitution and nations trying to confront errors of the past in some of these recent changes to citizenship rules - also see Portugal and, to a lesser extent, Spain.
The issue of dual nationality is clearly important, especially to those of us in the UK who are looking to re-create our links to Europe after the terrible disaster of Brexit. I believe Romania does, Poland is not keen but may do so and Germany has now changed its rules to not allow it with non EU countries (like the UK post 2020) although if you are applying for German citizenship because it was lost as a result of Nazi oppression then you CAN apparently hold dual citizenship.
I have struggled with understanding the Austrian offer. I will try and look into it in more detail but it could be interesting. Does it matter that, after leaving Kolomya & Vijnita, my grandparents went to Germany and never lived in what is modern-day Austria?
My grandparents on my mother's side came from Kolomyja and Vijnita (Wiznitz) - the two towns are 50km apart but when they were born in 1908/1911 one was in the Austro-Hungarian province of Galicia and one was in the A-H province of Bukovina. Now both are in Ukraine (via USSR). In between WW1 & WW2 Vijnita was in Romania.
So we have been looking at Romanian citizenship (as I said previously) and also German citizenship as my mother was born there in 1938 but as my grandparents never became German citizens this is proving difficult.
So what is it to be?
<image001.png>
<image002.png>
<image003.png>
Happy to discuss this further with anyone who knows more about the Austrian option or wants to compare notes
Alan
On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 at 11:09, Karin Perrin <karin_at_karinp.co.uk<mailto:karin_at_karinp.co.uk>> wrote:
Dear all
Just musing on the Austrian passport options….
Many many years ago, after living in the UK for many years, I became a UK citizen. At the time the Austrians (not members of the EU till 1995) asked me to sign a document giving up my Austrian citizenship “for ever” . (I had had Austrian citizenship since I was a child – I am not sure on what basis my father was able to get this after the war when the whole family was stateless after escaping Romania). The Austrian government, at the time I became a UK national (1980s), would not accept dual nationality. The UK had no problem with dual nationalities and I believe still does not. Just mentioning this in case it affects the route to Austrian citizenship – do they still refuse dual citizenship even if part of the EU now? On my mother’s side of the family we are indeed old “Austro Hungarians” so in principle Arthur’s idea might be a route I also could take, in search of a EU passport. But I personally might be blocked due to my “unpatriotic actions”!
Regards to all.
Karin
From: bounce-125331222-87608252_at_list.cornell.edu<mailto:bounce-125331222-87608252_at_list.cornell.edu> <bounce-125331222-87608252_at_list.cornell.edu<mailto:bounce-125331222-87608252_at_list.cornell.edu>> On Behalf Of Arthur von Czernowitz
Sent: 25 January 2021 13:55
To: Alan Gavurin <gavurin_at_gmail.com<mailto:gavurin_at_gmail.com>>
Cc: czernowitz-L_at_cornell.edu<mailto:czernowitz-L_at_cornell.edu>; Gold-Glasberg, Ruth <glasgold_at_bellsouth.net<mailto:glasgold_at_bellsouth.net>>
Subject: Re: [czernowitz-l] Applying for Romanian Citizenship - Legal Support
Hello Alan
I believe that you and your brother are after an European passport.
I thing that there is another way, you can also try in obtaining an Austrian passport if you can prove that your grandfather had Austrian citizenship.
Do you speak Hebrew? If yes I could possibly help you with the Romanian route.
Arthur
Sent from my iPad
On Jan 25, 2021, at 3:21 AM, Alan Gavurin <gavurin_at_gmail.com<mailto:gavurin_at_gmail.com>> wrote:
Friends
Forgive me if this has been discussed before but my brother and I are considering applEying for Romanian citizenship because our late grandfather was born in Wiznitz/Vijnita/Vyzhnytsia in 1911
Have any of you gone down this path? I know of at least one other Czernowitzer who is.
Can any of you recommend a good Romanian lawyer who could help us.
I have already approached two Romanian lawyers - one says he does not take cases where the relatives come from outside current Romanian borders (ie present day Ukraine) and the other does not speak English so we are really struggling to understand the technicalities and I don't think Google Translate is helping very much
Any recommendations would be gratefully received
Alan
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