Jeremy,
Do you have any records from another village in that same area, Moldovita
(used to be called Russ-Moldovita)? It is very close to Vatra Dornei and
Campalung.
Thank you,
eric jung
On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 5:53 AM Jeremy Pacht <jeremy.pacht_at_gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello Bruce,
>
> At the Suceava archives a man by the name of Claude MAXIM took me
> under his wing. He speaks good English, was sympathetic to my
> objectives, and was instrumental in enlisting the cooperation of
> "Cerberus", the grumpy little chap whose job it was to sit in the
> reading room and fetch requested documents (or to play computer games,
> pretend documents did not exist and refuse requests on any available
> pretext, depending on one's perspective).
>
> You are the second person to mention a 100 year privacy rule to me,
> and I think you are right in surmising I was given access to "new"
> volumes because they have been recently declassified.
>
> Claude gave me oral permission to disseminate the records I
> photographed at the Suceava archives, regarding the other material
> (from Vatra Dornei and from the contact who supplied me with the
> passport applications) I did not ask for permission to disseminate the
> photos and I was not informed I could not do so.
>
> I understand from what you say that it may be acceptable to post
> indexed records online even if they are less than 100 years old -- I
> will check with Michael Moritz.
>
> All the best,
>
> Jeremy
>
>
> On Sat, 4 Sept 2021 at 15:35, Bruce Reisch <bruce.reisch_at_cornell.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Jeremy,
> >
> >
> >
> > First of all – congratulations on your wonderful accomplishments! It
> must have taken you a great deal of time to photograph these records, and
> some negotiating skills to gain access.
> >
> >
> >
> > The Romanian records contact at JewishGen is no longer Barbara Hershey.
> The new director is Michael Moritz mmoritz_at_jewishgen.org.
> >
> >
> >
> > I believe the index of records on the JewishGen page shared by Emily is
> complete. It includes some records that are yet to be indexed and
> uploaded. So All of your Vatra Dornei records are “new” and some of your
> Suceava records are newly available as well.
> >
> >
> >
> > About privacy: I think there is a 100 year privacy rule in Romania, and
> that seems to be why some of the records that are just over 100 years old
> were shared with you (my speculation). So the key thing is what were you
> told about sharing these records when they allowed you to photograph them?
> I would also speculate that it would be permitted to post indexed records
> online (as done by JewishGen as well as the “Radautz Seven Seals”
> databases).
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks so much!
> >
> >
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> >
> >
> > From: bounce-125888466-3497436_at_list.cornell.edu <
> bounce-125888466-3497436_at_list.cornell.edu> on behalf of Jeremy Pacht <
> jeremy.pacht_at_gmail.com>
> > Date: Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 7:31
> > To: Emily Garber <emilyhgarber_at_gmail.com>
> > Cc: CZERNOWITZ-L <CZERNOWITZ-L_at_list.cornell.edu>
> > Subject: Re:[czernowitz-l] Available records from Suceava and Vatra
> Dornei
> >
> > Hi Emily, Sharon -- and all --
> >
> > Thanks Emily for pointing me to the list of indexed records on Jewishgen.
> >
> > I made more than one error in my previous post, the most important
> > being that I incorrectly stated I had photographed Suceava births
> > 1910-1913, and I omitted one metrical book that I did photograph.
> >
> > If I am not mistaken, I photographed the following volumes of metrical
> > (by which I mean: birth, marriage and death) records that have not
> > been indexed on Jewishgen:
> >
> > Suceava births: 1906-1909 (the previous volume, indexed on Jewishgen,
> > evidently ends part way through 1906)
> > Suceava marriages: 1904-1909
> > Suceava deaths:1906-1911, 1911-1916
> >
> > PLUS (I forgot to mention this in my previous post)
> >
> > Vatra Dornei deaths: 1877-1887
> >
> > Of course, may be that these volumes have already been photographed
> > (but have not yet indexed on Jewishgen).
> >
> > The "new" Suceava death registers -- in contrast to the Vatra Dornei
> > one -- are quite informative, since they provide details of the
> > deceased's parents. They are also well preserved and the handwriting
> > is crystal clear.
> >
> > The other error I recall making in my previous post was to state that
> > the "Verzeichnis" registers for Campulung, Dorna Kandreny and Vatra
> > Dornei contain the addresses of the individuals on the register.
> > Based on the single photo I took (besides the title page), this is
> > probably incorrect, I see names of "the new owners" and associated lot
> > numbers. For some inexplicable reason I failed to photograph the
> > adjoining page which contains the remainder of the record, presumably
> > showing the names of the former owners.
> >
> > Having perused the indexed volumes on Jewishgen it seems I should
> > contact Barbara Hershey regarding the material. But I will wait
> > another day or so to see what advice I receive on this forum.
> >
> > Finally, if any of you have a specific record you would like me to
> > look up, in principle (pending advice I hope to receive on any privacy
> > / dissemination issues) I think I am happy to do this (this would also
> > depend on the number of requests I receive!) but please be as specific
> > as possible. 19th century Jews went forth and multiplied, and the
> > 20th century volumes run to several hundred pages each.
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 4 Sept 2021 at 07:03, Emily Garber <emilyhgarber_at_gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Jeremy:
> > >
> > > Your trip to Romania sounds amazing! Congratulations on so many unique
> and interesting finds!
> > >
> > > I have checked your list of records against the ones JewishGen has
> already indexed and it appears that much of what you have collected
> (although not all) has been indexed (JewishGen generally does not place
> images of original online). They have indexed records for Suceava, Gura
> Humorolui and Campulung. It appears that some of the more recent records
> that you collected are not included in their collection. The inventory of
> their indexed records may be found at:
> https://www.jewishgen.org/new/romanian-collection-bukovina-vital-records/
> > >
> > > Emily Garber
> > > Phoenix, AZ
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > Jeremy Pacht wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > I've just returned from a trip to Romania where I was able to gain
> > > access to a number of documents in the Suceava Archives and in Vatra
> > > Dornei. This message is to let you know what I found and what I
> > > photographed, and also to ask for advice on what to do with the
> > > material -- I would like to share this with you, insofar as it is
> > > useful, but I don't necessarily know how to go about doing this, and I
> > > need advice on whether it is OK to publicise the information. The
> > > other thing is I don't alway have a precise idea what the material is
> > > about, someone more competent to judge would need to clarify.
> > >
> > > At the Suceava Archives I photographed a number of metrical books from
> > > Campulung and Gura Humorolui which -- since they are listed on the Leo
> > > Baeck Institute website among the available holdings at the Suceava
> > > archive -- may already have been photographed (if so, please confirm),
> > > namely:
> > >
> > > Campulung: births 1859-93, deaths 1857-77
> > > Gura Humorolui: marriages 1857-1907, deaths 1857-1909
> > >
> > > I was also given access to metrical books that do not appear on the
> > > list of Suceava archive holdings advertised on the Leo Baeck Institute
> > > website, which I also photographed:
> > >
> > > Suceava: births 1906-1909, 1910-1913, marriages 1904-1909, deaths
> > > 1906-1911, 1911-1916
> > >
> > > In addition, it transpires that the Suceava Archives hold cadastral
> > > records for Campulung, Dorna Candrenilor and Vatra Dornei, which I
> > > also photographed in part. (These were the only localities about
> > > which I enquired, presumably the archives hold similar records for
> > > other localities.) For each locality, I took photos of the available
> > > cadastral map, dating from around 1856, of the title pages of each
> > > item in the file relating to that locality, and in selected cases, all
> > > of the pages pertaining to a given item. Items included registers of
> > > Grundparzellen, Bauparzellen and Gelöschenparzellen for the years 1861
> > > and 1866, and also something entitled "Verzeichnis", which seem to be
> > > some kind of census or headcount (listing the individual's address).
> > > I'm afraid my German is basic, and while I think I know what some of
> > > these things are, all I am prepared to say is the registers list names
> > > and other biographical data of interest. It would be helpful if
> > > someone more knowledgeable could translate/explicate the precise
> > > nature of the documents.
> > >
> > > I photographed the 1866 Grundparzellen and Bauparzellen registers in
> > > their entirety for each locality, and also if I remember correctly,
> > > the earliest such registers, if any was available for a year prior to
> > > 1861.
> > >
> > > I also learned fortuitously that the Suceava Archives hold
> > > "Nationality Registers" for many districts. I am not sure what these
> > > are about, but I suppose they record individuals who acquired Romanian
> > > nationality after 1918. I was only able to take a few furtive
> > > snapshots of one or two of the volumes, as the archives are closely
> > > guarded by a small and very irritable gnome. These registers do
> > > record Jewish names, with their dates of birth and other details (I
> > > have yet to review the material). The Archives have an index of
> > > Nationality Registers (i.e., of the localities or districts for which
> > > there are registers), which I also photographed.
> > >
> > > În Suceava I also met with someone who provided me with a file of some
> > > sort of Romanian (?) "passport" applications. I am still awaiting
> > > clarification on the nature of these documents. It seems these were
> > > requests for visas to travel through former Austrian lands (Poland,
> > > Austria, Czechoslovakia) for periods of up to several months. The
> > > index provides the names of applicants over the period 1921-30, but
> > > the records proper that have been made available to me cover only the
> > > years 1921-1923. Each record provides biographical data of the
> > > applicant (from memory: place and date of birth, domicile, occupation,
> > > a detailed physical description, intended destination(s), duration of
> > > voyage, and date of application or date of issue.
> > >
> > > In Vatra Dornei I gained access to the Temple, where I photographed a
> > > number of registers. I am not sure what these are about. I think
> > > they all date from after WW II. One in particular seems to be a
> > > register of the Jews who returned to Vatra Dornei after the war
> > > (indicating inter alia the date of their return, their address in
> > > Vatra Dornei and, in annotations, dates they left for Israel or passed
> > > away), another lists contributions of some kind and so forth. Again,
> > > the one thing I can state quite confidently is there is information
> > > attached to names.
> > >
> > > I learned that in Vatra Dornei they have the land registers and
> > > property deeds going back to 1873. As a favour I was shown an index
> > > listing a number of PÄCHTs and their former assets (designated by
> > > numbers), as well as the documentation associated with one of these
> > > assets. However, when I pressed for full access to the PÄCHT records
> > > my request was rebuffed on the grounds this would be a gargantuan job.
> > > I don't know if this was true or if it was a pretext to prevent me
> > > from getting the information. Elsewhere I was told that many current
> > > "owners" (who paid to acquire their dwelling or business) have no
> > > legal title to the asset, so they are exposed to the risk of claims by
> > > descendants of former owners.
> > >
> > > Finally, I visited the old cemetery in Siret and the cemetery in Vatra
> > > Dornei, and took quite a few photographs in case they are of interest.
> > > A local in Vatra Dornei has since offered to do some searching for me
> > > in the cemetery there, but before responding to his offer I would like
> > > to know what work if any has already been carried out in the context
> > > of the various cemetery preservation / restoration initiatives that I
> > > understand have been underway for a number of years now. Who should I
> > > approach to find out what has been done / what is projected for the
> > > Vatra Dornei cemetery?
> > >
> >
> >
> *******************************************************************************
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Received on 2021-09-10 17:29:43